Thanks. Point well taken. I will restate....
In our rise to conciousness the mind becomes 'aware'
of itself and other things. The part in Lucas' that
refers to this is;
"The paradoxes of consciousness arise because a
conscious being can be aware of itself, as well as of
other things, and yet cannot really be construed as
being divisible into parts."
The mind & body are not divisible but they are
certainly regarded as separate entities. I propose
that one possible theory for an answere to the riddle
is that the mind can in fact suspend this
consciousness through a sequence of steps or thoughts
that are initiated by it getting caught up in a
paradox. If it achieved a truly mechanistic style of
analysis it would not be able to jump out of it
(Halting theorem).
The clusters of the brain could quite literally
assemble their own consciousness as separate entities
to debate a tricky paradox.
Obviously this seems creative and hypothetical to
extend another level of consciousness, however, that
could easily send it into an infinite loop.
A rationalistic portion of our brain learns how to
enter this state and perhaps cannot release the mind
from that new state. The rationalistic part takes the
mind prisoner so to speak and will not let it escape.
In the Hofstadter piece analyzing Cherniak's riddle,
the point was well made how humans can rationalize
until 'tired' of an idea then jump out when he wrote;
"The mind flips back and forth a few times and savors
the bizarre sensation of a sentence undermining itself
by means of an interlevel contradiction-yet before
long it tires of the confu- sion and jumps out of the
loop into contemplation" This is what fails to happen
when the brain segregates and becomes entrenched in
debating a Godelian type riddle.
We read how Tortoise tricks Achilles into 'treating'
him to a meal after Achilles gave up trying to assert
AND prove that it was his birthday.
Finally, the relevance of the name of the project. The
name of the project (Autotomy) and the apparent
disconnect from the body is symbolic of the mind
detaching from the Body to ensure that it will not
interfere and prevent it from giving up searching for
an answer (or answers) to the riddle! So, are there
multiple levels of consciousness now -- or NONE! Man
this is deadly stuff!!!!
/David McKay XXXX76573
y and mind similar to a coma.
Does anyone else have any ideas on this? Is this make
any sense with respect to Godel, Luca
--- Mary Anne Vincent <vmary_anne@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi david
> with regards to ur question number 4. the
> explanation u provided i belive
> has no relevance to the discussion at hand beause
> what u explain is quite to
> similar to the explaination in the hindu mythology
> with respect to "moksha"
> where by body and mind seperate and considered 2
> differen forms within the
> same entity. And i certainly dont think we are
> discussing about 'moksha'
> here. (sorry if i sounded rude :) *peace*)
>
> nisha
>
> >From: David McKay <ntkernl@yahoo.ca>
> >To: MATH3500 <math3500@mathstat.yorku.ca>
> >Subject: Autotomy - Bringing new meaning to the
> Brain Drain
> >Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:21:28 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >After weeks of reading and analysis on the Lucas
> piece
> >and "the riddle" I believe I have the answer.
> >
> >What puzzled me for the longest time was how a
> brain
> >could become jammed. Especially after reading
> about
> >how we are able to think at many levels and trump
> >machines because of it. After much debate with
> myself
> >over the merits of different scenarios and the
> >relevance to Lucas' analysis I believe the brain is
> in
> >fact looking for answers.
> >
> >Several people have explained very admirably how
> >Lucas' analysis relates to Godel's Incompleteness
> >Theorem. I believe this is very important to gain
> an
> >understanding of the riddle and 'look' for possible
> >answers to why this is happening.
> >
> >Here are some (of many) of the things that REALLY
> >puzzled me about the Cherniak story that I had to
> work
> >through to come up with my answer.
> >
> >1. Why did the new programmer 'fail' to get
> enticed
> >by the riddle?
> >2. Why did the topologist suffer identical
> >consequences in a totally unrelated research
> project
> >and field?
> >3. Did Dizzard suffer the same consequences of
> the
> >riddle 10 years prior? (credit to the other person
> in
> >this forum who initially proposed this first!)
> >
> >4. What does this have to do with Self Reference?
> >
> >
> >I re-read the Riddle (probably 6 times) and read
> other
> >information and felt compelled to answer Question 4
> >before moving on to formulate my answer to the
> riddle.
> >
> >After some creative brainstorming I still was
> >thinking, Loop, infinite iterations, recursive
> >questions for unkowns and tried to normalize my
> answer
> >to fit seemed like all the other explanations I
> found
> >while reading all the latest emails each day. I
> >agreed with almaost all of them.
> >
> >Then, by accident, in my sub-concsious I thought
> of
> >it while listening to music in the car. Similar
> to
> >hearing special effects, like an echo. Well the
> idea
> >was what if the rationalistic side of your brain
> could
> >gain a conscience. The second order is attained.
> >Previously mentionned by J.D Rueda for his analogy
> >when a computer crashes. This is very similar.
> >Except this is not a mechanistic process, this is
> the
> >Brain gaining another 'level' of consciousness.
> >
> >This satisfied my belief that a self referential
> >paradox was at play when these people articulated
> >thoughts in their head how to compare, analyze,
> >differentiate and ANSWER their questions.
> >
> >I encourage you to look up the definition of
> Autotomy.
> > If you have read this far. You deserve to find
> out
> >but I will leave it to your own curiosity.
> >
> >Answers to the questions I had above...
> >1. Because the programmer failed to understand the
> >information on the screen. He was new after all.
> I
> >have a lot of other Questions regarding this person
> in
> >the story. I am saving those for my essay!
> >2. Topologists do it by their very nature. I
> don't
> >really understand what they really do anyways.
> This
> >was accidental. My apologies to all the
> Topologists
> >out there.
> >3. I believe yes. Dizzard must have been able to
> >break out of the paradox in his brain and return to
> >investigate and document his findings on the
> Autotomy
> >of the brain.
> >4. The brain has obtained another dimension of
> >conscience and might be asking itself a question.
> >Similar to the 2nd order and thinking outside the
> box.
> > Once you are able to ascend to that level and
> >dimension of consciousness, parts of the brain
> appear
> >to be jammed as it debates several other new
> >tantalizing ideas in a whole new dimension.
> >
> >Other questions like, did the brain disconnect
> from
> >the body or the body from the brain, to protect
> >against loss of the other party etc. These are
> >obvious philosophical questions. Can make
> arguments
> >for both ==> and then Inconsistancies.
> >
> >Let me know if this is just a bunch of nonsense or
> if
> >it seems like a sound argument.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>______________________________________________________________________
> >Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
>___________________________________________________________________
> >This message was sent to the math3500 discussion
> list by David McKay
> ><ntkernl@yahoo.ca> .
>
>
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___________________________________________________________________
> This message was sent to the math3500 discussion
> list by "Mary Anne Vincent" <vmary_anne@hotmail.com>
> .
>
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